Episode 74: Making Bitcoin Simple for Everyone w/ Peter McCormack


Today we discussed making Bitcoin simple for everyone to understand with Peter McCormack.

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Episode 74: Making Bitcoin Simple for Everyone with Peter McCormack


JChains: Hey Friends, welcome back to Beards and Bitcoins. It’s a Crypto Podcast for the man’s man and yes, the ladies that love them. I am joined today as always with my bearded and beautiful co-host, BitBoy. How you doing buddy?

BitBoy: Oh, I’m doing good, doing fantastic. 2020s off to a roaring start.

JChains: Oh, what a great roaring 20s beginning. It’s been a great start for the podcast. You know last week we had Chain Tuts. This week we are very excited to bring you the episode with Peter McCormack. In case you didn’t know he is the host of what Bitcoin did podcast as well as defiance. Super exciting episode, we got to talk to him a lot. If your children are in the room, put headphones in because it gets a little intense-

BitBoy: Why would you want to put headphones on your children’s ear so they hear the F word louder? You’re sick, Justin.

JChains: Maybe I said that backwards or you know, put on their favorite cartoon show, whatever.

BitBoy: They’re listening to Kidz Bop.

JChains: I don’t know Kidz Bop.

BitBoy: That’s a great meme. Hopefully some people catch it, I don’t know if people know that but it’s really funny. If you want to watch a video that’s going to make you laugh very hard, look up there listening to Kidz Bop and you will find one of the funniest videos in the history of the internet.

JChains: I will absolutely do that. And I look forward to getting some laughs but on with the podcast. So, this is week two, today’s January 7 at the time of recording which means we’ve started the second week of the New Year. One of the things I know you’re doing with this ‘new year, new you’ because I can see it, you’re looking beautiful, is you’re going keto. You’re doing it.

BitBoy: Going keto, absolutely. Definitely, doing that. I think that it’s a great way to lose weight. I’m overweight right now. I want to get back into good shape. A lot of people think they look at me and they think that I’m some kind of lazy fat guy who doesn’t work out but actually did CrossFit for several years. I played sports my whole life, including as an adult and stuff like that. I’m just a little out of shape right now. So, I know that I said earlier on an episode last year that I was going to run a marathon and I still am definitely going to do that. The end of the year the holidays were kind of rough, but definitely doing keto, trying to get back in shape. Hopefully by the end of this year, I’m going to be the best year of my life, so we’ll see.

JChains: And by running a marathon you don’t mean just like bingeing a couple series on Netflix, right?

BitBoy: Now like literally running a marathon. I’ve ran one before and I would like to run another one so-

JChains: Awesome.

BitBoy: Got a lot of hidden talents and a lot of things I’ve done in my life people don’t know I’ve done

JChains: You like the man of all trades and mystery. He’s done a lot, ladies and gentlemen.

BitBoy: That’s right. One thing I’ve done is I invested in XRP in 2017. I do not currently have any right now, but it’s actually going to be our Token Time token today. For our new segment, we’re going to be talking about XRP at the end of the video, but not the end of the video, the few minutes here, but I want to know from you before we get there before we talk about current events, which is also a very interesting discussion today. What are you doing for your resolution in 2020?

JChains: Well, I think it’s along the same lines, I wanted to make myself healthier, physically, mentally. I want to add a few revenue streams to my portfolio. So, my goal is to just make myself a better version. I want to be a better Justin in 2020 that I wasn’t 2019, pure and simple. I just want to be better than I was. I want this to be my best year yet and then when I get to 2021, I want to be a better Justin in 2021 than I was in 2020. I want to always be improving every year.

BitBoy: That’s a great strategy. But honestly, I feel like another great strategy is like, let’s be the best ‘us’ we can be this year. And then next year, we can chill, you know, because we did good this year, you know what I’m saying?

JChains: I don’t know if you’ve seen this. The show on Netflix is called the ‘Good Place’

BitBoy: I have not but I’m very familiar with what it is.

JChains: Okay. It’s kind of like that, you know, that whole thing about how you with the realization of getting yourself into heaven versus hell, are you going to be a good person because you want the moral carp? You want the, what’s called, moral desert, or you’re going to do it just because it’s a good thing to do. So, the goal is just to be a better person and maybe in 2021, we eat that dessert.

BitBoy: Yeah, we eat the dessert in 2021 because in 2020, we’re not eating dessert. I like that.

JChains: Okay. That’s the plan.

BitBoy: For people that have decided they want to lose weight and they are going the direction to keto like something I would suggest that I really, well first of all parmesan crisps are incredibly good zero carbs. But the Atkins Diet people make like some little desserts like Reese’s cups and all kinds of stuff, that’s keto friendly, a little caramel square. So, if you’ve got a sweet tooth because I definitely do, then that’s definitely a good way to satisfy that sweet tooth. But also, they make the little protein meal replacement shakes. I don’t drink them as replacement shakes. I’ll just take a couple swings, every couple hours when I’m feeling like I need something sweet.

JChains: There you go. That’s the way to do it. And this way, you’re not over indulging.

BitBoy: Yep. So, I’m on keto for the entire year.

JChains: Well, we wish you the best of luck. I’m still nursing some injuries from my crash. So, I can’t work out quite yet. I need to start the cardio pretty soon here. So, I will be working out, I’m going to get myself a brand-new pair of tennis shoes today. I do know that and so that I can start working out because it’s been a couple weeks of just kind of laying low. I know I’m putting on a few pounds. I’m actually down this last week, because finally, you know, I wanted to talk about this last week, but we didn’t. I give props to anyone that’s ever beaten in opiate addiction. Because I was on it for two weeks, I was on these pills for two weeks and I was already starting to notice that I was becoming dependent on it. So, I had to cut the cord on that. So, props to anybody that’s ever cut that addiction, because like I said, I mean two weeks is nothing that’s like ‘baby’ and if you’re in harder-

BitBoy: So that’s how that’s how it starts where people are sure. You know, it’s interesting with addiction. They say that opiates is the only way that people who’ve never done drugs in their life, get addicted in older age, you know, like almost every person who’s addicted to drugs has been addicted since they were teenager, almost every single one. Or it may be early 20s at the very oldest but interesting thing about opiate addictions, and I used to run an addiction place, so I know a little bit about this stuff, is the only place where you’re seeing senior abuse, and it’s first time abuse.

JChains: Oh really?

BitBoy: Absolutely.

JChains: Oh, wow.

BitBoy: It’s terrifying, guys, they hurt their bag, they’re 40-50-60 years old, even 70 years old, they go in, they get the opiates and all of a sudden, they’re addicted, you know, just like they have been doing it their whole lives. And it’s the only instance where massive amounts of elderly people are actually getting addicted that have never done drugs.

JChains: Wow, that’s crazy.

BitBoy: Yeah. So, speaking of getting down.

JChains: That’s right.

BitBoy: One thing we’re down with is the Monarch Wallet and Manscaped the sponsor of the show ain’t that right, Justin?

JChains: That’s absolutely true. So we do have to thank our sponsors because the show is brought to you in part by Monarch Wallet and Manscaped and we know the team at Manscaped is working hard to bring you the one app to access all of the best crypto services right there in the palm of your hand.

BitBoy: That’s right. You can buy, store, spend, earn and swap Bitcoin and most ERC 20 tokens among a ton of other features.

JChains: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. That’s super cool. It is a super cool app. For more information, check out monarchwallet.com, you can also go to monarchtoken.io to learn more about them.

BitBoy: That’s right in additional support for Beards and Bitcoins comes from Manscaped, the leaders in below-the-belt grooming.

JChains: You heard that right. Fellas, listen up. You need to take care of the hair down there. This is 2020 It’s a new year, it’s a new you. Check out Manscaped.com today, get more information. They’ve got this thing called the Lawnmower 2.0. We’re actually going to be doing a video on it. Maybe we won’t

BitBoy: A live demo.

JChains: A live demo. There may be some blurred out stuff but just you know this trimmer is not going to nick or snag your nuts, which means Manscaping accidents, finally, gentlemen, it’s a thing of the past. So, trust us, your balls and that special person in your life are going to thank you.

BitBoy: That’s right. Make sure you head on over to Manscaped.com and use promo code ‘beards’ for 20% off and free shipping. That’s Manscaped.com, code ‘beards’

JChains: Bam. Bam. Bam. Token Time. I need one of those wrap ‘bam bam bam’.

BitBoy: Yeah. Oh, there’s a really popular TikTok video of a guy who uses something called a ‘Talk Box’ Have you heard of those?

JChains: Oh, so it sounds like you’re Peter Frampton.


BitBoy: Something like that. It’s actually a tube you put in your mouth.

JChains: Yeah, that’s like what Peter Frampton did back in the–

BitBoy: Must be.

JChains: ‘That’s alright.’

BitBoy: Yeah. So anyways it’s just a crazy thing. Maybe that’s what we need to get you a talk box.

JChains: Yeah, I’ll just attach it to my mic.

BitBoy: ‘Token Time’



JChains: I’m going to get a talk box. Yeah, Token Time, Token Time today, let’s talk about XRP. Only because a big, big pump the other day, yesterday, the day before we recorded this show, I think it was like a 12% pump. Do you have any information for the listeners as to why that happened?

BitBoy: Yeah, so just like with every single pump ever, like people see the pump, and then they try to figure out why afterwards. Is it actually a cause and effect relationship? It’s really hard to say for 100% but you know, people are always going to find a reason. So, after the pump, the reason now that we’re getting is that Binance, the world’s largest crypto exchange, actually announced that they would be beginning XRP trading pairs for their futures contracts on their future platform.

JChains: Futures on the XRP.

BitBoy: That’s right. Now our guests we have a little bit later today, Peter McCormack as I call him, he probably is not happy we’re talking about XRP that same day he’s coming on the show. What do you think?

JChains: No. Because he did scoff at one point, I did mention XRP I got an ‘ouf’

BitBoy: Yeah.

JChains: But it’s okay. Because we’re trying to stay relevant and current with what’s going on. So, if there was a different token or coin that had a nice little pump, before we recorded this, then it’s your time to shine baby but in all fairness XRP did and so we’re going to go through a couple quick stats really quick. Right now, at the time of recording, it’s about 21 cents got about a $9.1 billion market cap. The market cap dominance is almost four and a half percent with a 24-hour trading volume of 2.2 billion


BitBoy: Yeah.

JChains: With a ‘B’.

BitBoy: Another stat that people may not know is that I was doing some research for a YouTube video on my YouTube analytics and stats and I use something called VidIQ for my videos and it tracks stats on all keywords. Interestingly enough, XRP gets almost exactly the same amount of YouTube searches per month, that Bitcoin gets, what do you think about that?

JChains: I think that’s interesting. I think that they’ve done a great job of marketing. When I say marketing to the masses, I don’t want to be misconstrued that they’re out there pushing XRP and all this stuff. But I mean, the XRP army is very loyal. They are devoted to the community, so kudos to them. It’s not my investment of choice. But it’s not my business to tell anyone what they should or shouldn’t invest in. So, to those people, I mean, if you go on CoinGecko.com right now, and look at XRP you know, they have one a little section, like how do you feel about XRP today, right now 83% have the thumbs up. So, again, you know, it’s a loyal fan base, it’s a community that really rallied behind that project. So good for them.

BitBoy: Good for them, good for them. Yeah, it’s definitely a controversial topic in crypto. And I think you and I have both made our personal thoughts about XRP pretty clear several times on the show, it’s not our investment. But if you are in crypto and you are ignoring XRP that, in my opinion, is a huge mistake, because people want to know what’s going on with it. And if you have a bad opinion of it, or you don’t think it’s going to do well, then, you just speak up and say that, so you know, people get a more balanced view on things but

JChains: Absolutely. So, Brad Garlinghouse or Tiff (Tiffany) Hayden, if you’re listening, come on the show. Let’s talk about it.

BitBoy: We want Tiff on the show but she says she won’t come on. If you want to Tiff Hayden on this podcast, make sure to tag her.

JChains: Please.

BitBoy: Yeah, we want to talk to her.

JChains: And thank you.

BitBoy: And thank you. So, I guess it’s time we move on to our other segment of the show.



BitBoy: That was great.

JChains: I actually did my, what’s that called? Will you do the echo man? There’s like a guitar pedal, a delay. Oh, I did the delay there.

BitBoy: I was impressed. Well, here is the top news story going on in crypto right now. That was it.

JChains: That’s it. There’s no news. That’s the thing. There’s no news going on right now. There is nothing.

BitBoy: Is a person who reports on crypto news. And I’ve actually had to slow down my news videos lately because there is nothing going on in crypto, like people are digging around, finding old news, finding old stats trying to bring stuff up. But right now, there’s just not a lot going on. And it’s very concerning.

JChains: Yeah, concerning on a couple levels. I mean, one, if you’re trying to change the way that people conduct a business or transact with currencies, the fact that there’s no major news going on, the fact that things have been– I mean, you know, Bitcoin went up a couple hundred bucks in the last week or so yeah, yipee-yipee. You know, talk to us at 10 K, then we’ll have some news for you because then hopefully we’ll be moving up, but it’s just been so sideways. I wouldn’t consider this a bear market. I wouldn’t definitely not consider it a bull market. But this sideways business is really, I know a lot of people on crypto Twitter, it’s boring. A lot of people have left.

BitBoy: Yeah, I would say the sideways action causes as much or more capitulation than the super downwards action.

JChains: Yeah, I mean, I think that there were more people talking about NFL football playoffs. I’m seeing a lot of foodie posts. I mean, I’m guilty of this too, I’m posting pictures of me with a massager on my back. I mean, for God’s sakes, come on.

BitBoy: What was that? You look like Cobra Commander, Destro. Destro from GI Joe.

JChains: Dude, this is super cool, it’s like a Shiatsu massager.

BitBoy: Yeah.

JChains: Can’t speak there. But like you put like your hands on like these things. So, you can put the right tension in the right spot.

BitBoy: That’s what she said, she likes that too.

JChains: Yes, that is.

BitBoy: She loves that. So, but hate to disappoint you guys with News Break today by there not being any crypto news stories. But one thing that I’ve learned in content creation is that sometimes, if you can’t find the story, the story is that there’s no story.

JChains: That there’s no story. Let it find you. If you can’t find it, it’ll find you.

BitBoy: Let us know, drop a comment in the video. If you’re watching online. If you’re listening, drop a comment on your favorite platform or you know, on our Twitter account. What do you guys think is going on right now? Because it’s super boring.

JChains: Yes.

BitBoy: Yes.

JChains: Alright. Well, I guess with Token Time and News Break out of the way, there’s only one thing left to do.

BitBoy: That’s right. Here is our Interview with Peter McCormack, I hope you guys enjoy it



JChains: Alright guys, we are joined with Peter McCormack the host of ‘What Bitcoin did and defiance’ coming from Bedford, England. The man, the myth, the legend, well you are no myth actually, you are real. Peter McCormack, what’s up buddy?

Peter: I’m no legend either. Well yeah, I’m good, man. How are you? It’s great to finally talk to you guys on this show because I have a beard and I have Bitcoin.

BitBoy: It’s true.

Peter: Funny going on.

JChains: Two for two. We’d like that.

Peter: Two for two. Yeah, I like that, man.

BitBoy: Well, we’re glad to have you on the show for sure. We’ve been trying to get you on for a while and then we all got crazy schedules.

JChains: Yeah, but we did it.

Peter: We did it, we are here.

JChains: Yeah, it’s new, it’s that ‘New Year, New Us’ making things happen

Peter: Yeah, we’re rocking, we’re rolling, diaries filling up.

BitBoy: Bitcoin pumping, right?

Peter:  Bitcoin’s pumping.

BitBoy: Good for everybody.

Peter: Good stuff.

BitBoy: Yeah let’s talk about Bitcoin for just a minute. I’m very interested to hear obviously the name of your podcast is ‘What Bitcoin Did’ and you are a Bitcoin maximalist, I believe. I said the same thing to Andreas Antonopoulos. He was like ‘No no I’m definitely not’ Do you consider yourself a maximalist? You know everything you talked about on your podcast pretty much is Bitcoin.

Peter: So, the show is Bitcoin only now and it will occasionally touch on Altcoins if I think there’s some good advice to keep people away from them if it’s like a bad investment but there won’t be anything that promotes other coins. I think I’ve considered myself a Bitcoin maximalist sometimes, but it’s a term that’s used pejoratively, is that the term pejoratively now?

JChains:  I think it is.

Peter: It’s used as a criticism and I’m a bit like ‘Oh, do I really want to do that?’ And my view is like I really want to focus on Bitcoin that’s the one where I’m most confident we’ll be here in another 10 years. And like everything else is a distraction and even the arguments and battles over whether things are scams or they’re not, it’s a distraction. I’ve gotten that myself but I mean, like, I’ll be the first to say if someone comes along, they’ve created another blockchain based thing and it works and people are used and go ‘Yeah, great. Okay, you did it.’ What is it that’s kind of interesting? I kind of got this feeling that you know, I’ve spoken to a lot of people and I haven’t just spoken to Bitcoin maximalist. I’ve spoken to people running Altcoin projects running token projects. I’ve spoken to all different types of people and whilst I’m not the most and I can’t give you a technical reason why not this kind of work. I just got a feeling that Bitcoin’s going to be the one here in 10 years and most of the other stuff probably won’t be, therefore there is a problem with it.

JChains: When you say, here in 10 years, do you see it? And this is the way that I’m looking at it is that you know, and I know a lot of people do that it’s going to be digital gold. This is going to be the store of value. It’s not going to be transactional. It’s not going to be a currency. It’s just going to be a way to store value, digitally. That’s how I feel.

Peter: Did you know what, it’s funny. So, Mr. Hodl said something recently, like I posted something up from when I was in El Salvador, and he said, ‘I’ve always said that Bitcoin has a different meaning or different use depending on who you are.’ And I’m kind of coming to that conclusion, now. I think there are multiple uses for Bitcoin, it depends who you are, and depends where in the world you I think, for some people is a store value, digital gold, which is great, makes sense, but I also think some people will use it to transact because I do, I think some people will use it for remittance. I think there’s got a whole bunch of use cases. And I think you can, if you find a use for it this issue then cool, whatever that is. That’s cool.

JChains: I like that. Whatever floats your boat, baby.

Peter: Yeah. Whatever floats your Bitcoin.

BitBoy: I think that’s good. I think that I can see that perspective. I mean, you could say the same thing about gold also, right? Like, throughout history, there’s been different times where gold has been used to hedge assets and to be its own thing, but then also, like, people actually still transact with gold in different places at different times. So, if I say, ‘Hey, Peter, I’ve got something I want to sell to you.’ And you say, ‘Hey, I’ll give you a gold bar for it.’ Like, ‘Hey, I would take it’ but most of the time people are using it as an investment. Does that make sense?

Peter: Yeah, well, I mean, it’s funny timing to say that I just did a show today that came out with Parker Lewis talking about, what is money? And one of the big problems we’ve got, well, a couple of big problems is that you can’t send over the internet. It has a centralization problem and if you have a gold bar but actually it’s only half the gold bar I need, like cutting that gold bar in half is a pain. So, divisibility is a problem. So, what Bitcoin does is essentially has all the properties of gold, but also you can sell it over the Internet and it’s divisible down to what is it like 100 million units per Bitcoin? That’s kind of cool.

And actually, he also said a really interesting thing to me. He said, what a lot of people their problem with between gold and Bitcoin is like, like, psychologically can’t get over the fact that this one is a lump of thing and this one is like ones and zeros are tangible. Yeah, it’s tangible. But he said, if you could separate them by saying you can’t touch, smell, feel either of them, here are their properties, okay? And you listed out their properties, but this one has every property of that but you can send it over the internet and you can do it too. You know, whatever it is, eight decimal places, which one are you going to want? So, I will clearly have this one. So basically, Bitcoins kick.

BitBoy: Yeah, I would definitely agree that, in my opinion, Bitcoin blows gold away in every possible imaginable way. And I think that, you know, where we’re at now is it’s hard for people to wrap their minds around the zeros and the ones and the truly digital form because even though like really credit cards and debit cards, it’s digital money, the way you transact is all digital.

But yet you have a little bitty physical card in your hand. I think right now we’re really making that transition. When you see people in China that only use their phones for stuff as crazy as it is to think, in the United States and in Europe and other places, we’re not nearly as dependent on our phone as they are in Asia, they’re using it more and more. And I think the phone is kind of that bridge, to get us from where we’re actually using physical pieces of silver or plastic cards, whatever it might be, to transact, that’s the bridge between that and then totally digital money because if you really look at science fiction movies like I know it sounds crazy, but it’s true. Science fiction movies always predict the future like everything that we put in science fiction movies, is things that people can imagine in their mind and if people can imagine it in their mind, then there’s probably a way that we can actually make that happen.

JChains: Really quick, not crypto related. One of my favorite movie forecasts of the future was on Back to the Future when the Cubs won the World Series. God that was great for me.

Peter: I want the hoverboard.

BitBoy: Come on. Peter doesn’t know about American sports, okay? Let’s just go ahead.

Peter: Yes, I do. Yes, I do.

BitBoy: You like soccer, soccer is his favorite.

Peter: No. I know about American sports. I do. I’ve got a team in each sport.

BitBoy: Do you really?

Peter: Yeah.

BitBoy: Who’s your team in the NFL?

Peter: 49ers.

BitBoy: Oh, okay. Okay. Alright. Okay.

Peter: So when I first started to watch football, it was Jerry Rice, Steve Young, like that was my– and they were on. I was like, I like them so I kind of stopped with them. They suck since I saw them play in London with Kaepernick, which was cool. And like, my college team is Texas Tech.

BitBoy: Okay.

JChains: Wow, there we go.

Peter: And again, because the first game I ever watched was the one where Crabtree I don’t remember like in the last second.

BitBoy: Oh, yeah.

Peter:  It was against Texas. It was Texas vs Texas Tech. Texas is like 49-47 or 47-45. So stupid score and he’s like the guy tackled and took it and run it and on the ice hockey, I’m probably go with the Rangers just because I’ve gone watch him every time, I’m in New York, is that correct?

JChains: Yeah.

Peter: I’ll sound like an idiot, if I get it wrong. Dodgers is my baseball team because I used to watch it when I was in LA and I went to a playoff game where Justin Turner hit a walk off home run.

BitBoy: Yeah, I remember that game.

Peter:  Yeah, I was like, well, that’s my team. And then I’ve always liked the Boston Celtics, I think because I’m half Irish.

BitBoy: Okay, when you’re from England, you can actually pick any team from across the country in the United States.

Peter: You can. Probably somebody else would probably go ‘What the fuck you can’t support that and that, you can’t be New York and Boston.’

BitBoy: You can if you’re not from here, so I’m pretty much Atlanta all the way, I am a Lakers fan outside of that, but okay, well, your respect on the show has gone up, tremendously. Since you talked about sports. If you don’t like sports, you’re a nerd. So, we respect that.

Peter: You’re a Falcons fan?

BitBoy: I am a Falcons fan. Yeah. We all know it we’re famous for, so. I was at the Super Bowl. I was at the game, the 28-3, Super Bowl. So, I’m die-hard, I’m like the one die-hard Falcons fan in the world. But anyways, back to what I was saying before we talk sports because we love talking sports here on the show though. But in science fiction movies like everything in the future is digital. So why would money not be completely digital? And that’s where we’re going. And like I said, using phones to transact is a medium, a bridge to get us to that place and it’s going to be very interesting to see what happens in the next 50 years. There’s recently a report put out, I don’t know if you saw it by Deutsche Bank, they said that they believe cryptocurrencies will be completely adopted by 2030. Did you see that?

Peter: No, I didn’t.

JChains: 10 years.

BitBoy: Yeah, it was an analyst with Deutsche Bank. So, I mean, it wasn’t like, he’s their official analyst, but the report was put out under his analytics company, not necessarily Deutsche Bank, but he’s a guy who’s helping them make analytical decisions and he said, Yeah, by 2030 cryptocurrencies will totally take over. He said, the only thing holding back cryptocurrencies right now is just they’re so hard to use. And I mean, we see that with everything, when do you think Bitcoin is going to be easy for a no coin-er, or whatever you want to call them for people that aren’t into cryptocurrency, where someone says, ‘Hey, I want to do a transaction with Bitcoin and it’s not intimidating’ How far away from that do you think we are?

Peter: Oh, I don’t know. That’s a tough question. It’s a really hard question to answer because there is so much you have to understand you go down the rabbit hole, I mean, that first time you do a transaction, you get a cracker or CoinBase and you go buy a bit of Bitcoin, you transfer it, you kind of like, ‘Okay, I paid X dollars, I got x much of this.’ Okay, and then you move because ‘Oh, that was cool. I moved it.’ And then, I guess, it’s really easy at that point, you know how to dress wise, you know how to move it. But I think you need to understand how you want to use Bitcoin, like, do you want to save it? Do you want to spend it? If you spend it, do you want to top back up? So, I think one of the most important things isn’t always the UX, it’s understanding the economics of it as well. But I honestly don’t know when it’ll be complete. I mean, I guess it’s pretty usable now. It depends how far down the rabbit hole you want people to go as well. Like, if you want them to use Tor and Coin Join and run a node and I think it was way off.

BitBoy: Yeah.

Peter: I just don’t see that. You know, I I’m pissing off a lot of people by saying it, this is why I piss people all the time but I’m saying it by just saying look, this is your fucking planet you live on like it’s hard enough to go down and like go and have a pint with a mate and say ‘Listen, I think you should get into bitcoin’ and they ask ‘why?’ so ‘Well it’s the future of money’ but ‘Why?’ I was like, ‘Well, you know, because governments are bad and they print most of it. So it’s going to be worth nothing and one day they might steal it all’ and they’re like, ‘No, well, they didn’t steal it last week and I don’t think they can steal in this week’ and then what will happen, it will go up and they’ll see it in the news and then they’ll FOMO in to then try and get them to go right.

Well, by the way, you really need to be really self-sovereign, you need to get a node and you need to link that to Tor because you want to protect your privacy and you want to use Coin Join because you want to mix your coins. It’s just liked this fuck is just not going to happen. Like, I recommend. God, I’d guess, this is a stupid number out there but maybe like 1 in 10,000 people will do all of that. There’s probably like a handful of people there on Twitter doing that, the majority of people are going to buy it, hopefully take it off the exchange, hopefully have a hardware wallet or but I think a lot of people will just fuck it up or just not care enough and we can teach them, teach and teach them until we’re blue in the face, I just don’t think they’re going to do it. I think a large percent-

BitBoy: You don’t care to do all that.

Peter: No.

BitBoy: No one cares to do that.

Peter: It’s just too much.

JChains: It’s a lot of steps but you like what we were talking about the other day like with this PepCoin. Peter, I don’t know if you’ve seen this like on chip bags and sodas and all this stuff here in the States. Pepsi’s got this new thing called PepCoin. Now it’s not an actual cryptocurrency. But what it does is that it’s teaching people kind of this whole tokenized economy thing. So, it’s the word we used was grooming, maybe we’re saying paving the way. You know, it’s desensitizing people to the notion of “Hey, and I believe this is purely generational. Obviously for older people in the world, they’re not going to get it as much as we get it, younger people, they’re growing up in a digital world, so it only makes sense to have digital money. It just makes sense. So, as we continue to advance the technology and make things easier, hopefully, we’re going to get more people to jump in, but not until like we all say until it’s easier and it’s, it’s not the buying it, it’s the storing it. It’s the saving the seed phrase, it’s like, ‘Oh, if I lose my paper wallet, how am I going to get it back?’ You know, because how many million Bitcoin have already been lost?

Peter: I mean, I think we can. I think you can take people to stages, right? You can just say to them, just get it off an exchange, just get a hardware wallet and store it. Oh, yeah. And once you’ve got the hardware wallet, you need to store your seed and you need to store in a couple of safe places. I think you can get people into those basic steps, quite a lot. I think it’s the more advanced stuff. I just think people will really struggle and I think people underestimate how much is involved in it, so therefore, what is the goal? Now, one of the interesting questions I want to ask people right now is like, is the goal to take down the banks? You know, have this entire new financial system? If it is, well, there’s going to be some trade-offs, you’ve got to accept people are not going to do exactly what you want.

JChains: And XRP will have to go away too, because that’s the kind of XRP.

Peter: Or is the goal to create this kind of financial network that anyone can use and it’s kind of like this underground thing, and won’t go completely mainstream. But if that’s the case, then fine, cool, you can create an army of like badass cyberpunks, who are going to do everything in the right way. And they can understand about protecting their privacy and running a node. I still think there’ll be a minority of the network, but that’s it. I guess, like “Which one do you want?” I don’t think both can coexist as a short-term objective, it’s kind of one or the other.

BitBoy: Yeah. So that when people attacked you for not having your own node, that was probably the nerdiest thing I’ve ever seen on crypto Twitter, which is saying so much. So recently, okay for Christmas, my mom told me on Christmas, he said, ‘I’ve got a great surprise for you and your brother.’ I was like, ‘Okay, awesome’ you know, so we, you know, our families after we did Santa Claus and things like here, you know that in our houses on Christmas morning. We all went over to my family’s house and my mom had this present for us. We’re like, ‘Oh, yeah, you know, cool. We’re so excited.’ And we opened it up and it was all of the Ninja Turtle action figures from when we were kids. Now, it wasn’t the ones that we had, we used to have everyone you know, we were seven, eight years old and my mom like she worked two jobs, she did everything, she could do one Christmas, she surprised all the Ninja Turtles and we were just like, over the moon. But over time they got broken, we lost them, we grew into teenagers, you know ‘yada yada yada.’ But my mom had found a guy or a lady on Facebook. That was selling the entire collection, you know, they’ve been-

Peter: That’s fucking cool.

BitBoy: Yeah, not that they have not been played or they have been played with they weren’t brand new in the packages or whatever but she was nostalgic. She’s like, ‘Man, this is incredible, check these out.’ She said, ‘How did you get these?’ She said, ‘Well, the lady posted them on the Facebook marketplace and said that her 35-year-old son would not leave the house and had not had a job and all he did was play with his toys and comic books.

Peter: Stop it.

BitBoy:  Yes, obsessed with this stuff and said he never left the house and he would not get off the couch. So, she decided to steal all of his toys and sell them. And that’s how we got them; these are the people making fun of you for not having a node.

Peter: Dude, I know. Listen, look. Most of the people like I have, I’ve met a lot of people online, from Twitter, and then I’ve met them in person and the whole interaction is very different. It’s very different. But most of the time there’s a lot of people who are very vocal, and very animated about what their expectations are, but they have no like zero, like almost no understanding of UX and the reality of what people do.

You know, I constantly get the whole, ‘You’re a fucking idiot because you haven’t got a node or you’re a fucking idiot, you’re not technical.’ And I’m like, the whole idea of the show was when I first got into it, it was very intimidating, there’s so much to learn. I kind of didn’t want to learn it all, I wanted to know the basics. And I wanted to make a show for people like me and then they’re like, ‘You are a fucking idiot.’ And I’m like, ‘Well, there are a lot of people like me’ who probably need the content like this. And perhaps maybe that’s why like, I don’t know what the full numbers are.

But I’m guessing mine is like the biggest Bitcoin show or one of the biggest, right? So, there’s obviously an audience for it. You know, if 300,000 people have downloaded a month, they’re downloading it because they like it, they enjoy the content. And also, I get all the DMs and I should probably just screen grab them all day. There’s, you know, hundreds, maybe thousands of people from time to time, who have written to me and said, ‘Thank you really appreciate your approach. You’re asking the questions I want to ask.’ Now, for any of those people, if I really wanted to set up a node, I can figure it out, right? I figured out how to edit a podcast, I downloaded Audacity, I learned to use Audacity, I learned to use recording equipment. You know, I built my website, I learned SEO, like, I can figure out how to run a fucking node. But I’m not helping anyone by just saying, just saying that. I think I’m helping people more by saying, ‘Well, this is a bit complicated. I’m not sure I want to do it’ and like kind of raising the issues to make a conversation around it and then maybe people will understand why other people won’t do it or make it easier.

But it’s just honestly, it’s just mind numbing to that people have such a gap between what they think people know and what people actually know. It’s like it is what it is. You can’t make content without having haters, I’m sure you have your own haters at times.

JChains: Speaking of haters, and people not knowing but need to know. Something I want to talk to you about this was something that happened a few weeks ago. You got to debate Richard Heart about his HEX program.

Peter: Yes. It wasn’t an interview. It wasn’t an interview.

JChains: I guess it was more of a debate, you’re right. If you haven’t listened, you should go listen because it’s just hilarious, the guy’s clearly– and we’ve reached out to him on the show to talk to him but he’s unresponsive. So, piss off Richard.

Peter: He’s probably exited now.

BitBoy: Well, there was just yesterday, there was a story that said all the ETH has been moved.

JChains: With Sub-Satoshi, didn’t it?

Peter: Yeah, that’s from Bryce Wiener. That was wrong, yeah.

BitBoy: Wow.

Peter: Wow, just a bit of a hypocrite, I think. He’s hardly got a clean track record. But yeah, I mean, it looks so fucking obvious what’s going to happen, I still got people messaging me saying ‘You’re still a professional, You meant to be a journalist and you didn’t debate him and you were saying bad words to him.’ I was like, ‘Yeah, I did. Of course, if I did. This is moronic I’m not going to debate something that’s so stupid.’ What actually happened was, I watched the one with Stefan Avera the day before, and I watched him just talking over people, sorry, talking over Stefan and when Stefan had a good point, he would say—Richard, people think he’s a good debater. No, he’s a disingenuous debater because what he’ll do is he will change the point when you’re right. He will talk over you essentially. He is actually brilliant in his own right. And it’s bullshit.

And so, I thought I’ll go on, and I just won’t allow him to debate it. I’m just not debating it. I just say ‘You’re a scammer, you’re a scammer’ over and over again, like you’re a scammer and when he wants to talk about something else, I’ll go ‘No, because you’re a scammer.’ And that’s all I wanted people to see. You know, yet had people go, ‘Well, I think because people will have seen that they will aboard it because’ I was like, ‘Well, they’re fucking idiots.’ Not because they should believe me, but they should see enough in that to give them I should do some research on this. Now whether it’s a scabbard or it’s a different thing, right? Like what actually defines legally what a scam is? What it definitely is shady as fuck. No, it definitely is was a way for, you know when he first came out and he said ‘Oh it’s just going to be a free airdrop for people who’ve got Bitcoin’ Oh and then later on he goes, ‘Well if you do want to buy some you can is this, Oh and by the way is designed to pump and it can 10,000 x’ blah blah blah. I mean, if it’s not illegal, it’s shady as fuck. He’s essentially a thief, he’s a piece of shit. And anyone who’s given him the time or day or saying he deserves debating are fucking morons.

BitBoy: Well, here’s my question because I definitely aligned with your mindset on HEX. The question that I wonder about is he intentionally trying to steal from people or is he delusional?

Peter: No, he’s intentional. No, he knows what he’s doing. I mean, yeah, well again, I can’t say for certain. But you have to Google his name and go and look at his past to realize he has a very shady past. He’s on a lot of shady things. You know, he’s not the most, shall we say this ‘honest gentleman’ there is and I suspect he lost loads of money in the Bull Run. I think he was, I’m going to guess he was leveraged long, he thought Bitcoins were going to go higher, he got trapped like so many people did. I think he absolutely got wrecked and I wouldn’t say probably broke, but I reckon he wants standard living, it’s like, well, you know, I can create this. I’ve got an audience, I can convince them and some people invest some money and fuck it I’ll walk away with that money.

JChains: And $4 million later, there he goes.

Peter: Yeah, I say I wonder if that’s all of him. Like, sorry, other people. I wonder if he kind of figured a way up in some of his own money in that. I don’t know. I would be surprised if people put $4 million into this.

BitBoy: I would not, I would not at all. There was just a post on Twitter today about a guy who did a paid group and got a million dollars in a few months from people and just totally exit scammed. You know, like, how in the world can these people just pop up overnight and they get a million dollars and that’s why I believe and I can tell you like, I had people on Instagram that I know that are not like, you know that they’re not probably the most super technical people or people that understand crypto the best, but they’re in crypto. And they were telling me how I had to get in on this thing with Richard Heart. Like, ‘oh, man, you got to do a video about this, this going to be huge. I’m getting it on it. I’m doing this airdrop.’ And I was like, that doesn’t. I know. I was never going to send any money to it.

Peter: Of course not. I mean, you got to be fucking brain dead to think there’s worse at it and some people did. I’m like God. Do you know what, I thought it was funny, I remember when I first got into crypto and bought some Bitcoin, bought some Ethereum, then bought fucking everything, bought Dash, Monero, literally everything and I was like ‘Wow.’ Like I have a certain amount of sympathy for people who believe in a blockchain world because I did. I wasn’t thinking I’m scamming people I was like, ‘Oh, this makes sense we can have a betting market with Augur. Oh, we’ve got a privacy coin with Monero. We’ve got Bitcoin silver’ Like those early days I was convinced, okay, and I invested in all of it and I was making money I was like, ‘This is the world was coming.’ Like I got it, right?

And then over time, I was like, ‘Ah, yeah, this doesn’t make sense. I’ve got no reason to use this, no one’s using this, UX is terrible. Oh yeah, this is all bullshit.’ So, but when I when I was convinced and then I get into debates. I used to have like OG’s saying ‘You’re a fucking idiot. What are you doing?’ Like no patience at all with me, just literally no patience. ‘Why are you interviewing scammers? Why are you giving a platform for scammers? It’s like I just want to learn. I think there’s something here’ I’m now, like we’re talking what three years on?’ And I’m now that guy. Yes. It’s all fucking bullshit. And I’m like running out of patience with people and I’m just telling people they’re idiots because I just can’t be fucking bothered now.

JChains: But that’s what’s holding the space back to is all the scams you know all this stuff; I mean people aren’t going to jump in when they know that– I mean there are just clear scams happening left and right. I mean–

Peter: All over the shop.

JChains: All over the garage here.

Peter: All over the garage Yeah, yeah, it is a shame and also I don’t think it’s helpful to call every single thing a scam.

BitBoy: It is not, at all.

Peter: I think you can grade it. I think you can have outright scams; you can have blockchain scams like outright scams, something like OneCoin and then you have blockchain scams, something like BitConnect. And then I think you can have just really, really dumb ideas like really stupid ideas, whereby someone’s like, you know, like potatoes on the blockchain or some fucking bullshit, where it’s just like, you don’t need-

BitBoy: It on the blockchain. That’s a real phenomenon.

Peter: It just looks stupid. And then I think you’ve got a few things where it’s like okay, do I honestly think these people are 100% trying to scam people? No is the idea going to work? Probably not. But is it an outright scam? I don’t think it is. I think it’s more helpful to separate them so at least people know what they’re looking at.

BitBoy: Yeah and people that are, people like Tone Vays for instance that basically calls everything a scam is not Bitcoin like I like Tone, I’ve met him you know I’m not saying anything bad about him as a person, but I don’t feel like that’s helpful because that really just makes people think that all of crypto is a scam because let’s face it, Bitcoin is like point 00 1% of all the coins out there.

However, we know the market cap obviously it’s about 68% but, in my opinion, that’s not doing anybody favors. And when you will get like okay, let’s say 99% of all blockchain coins, let’s say they fail. Okay, 99%. That’s only 9% more than any other startup in the in the world, you know 90% of startups 90% of businesses fail just because they’re a failing business does not mean they’re a scam and when we use the word ‘scam’ to just blanket so much stuff, it’s so confusing and it just it creates this echo chamber, especially like I did a video yesterday about Altcoins on my channel.

And I believe that we are heading back towards Altcoins going back up, if you look at every Altcoin Season we’ve ever had, has followed a similar pattern. But the problem is they’re quick bursts about a time that people get really excited about them. It’s already over. You know, it happened so fast and a lot of these people that are just calling everything scams that’s not going to play well. When the market goes back up. I was able to pull up a bunch of articles that look as silly as the guy that said the internet wasn’t going to work from 2016 when people said ‘Altcoins will never ever do well.’ Then we saw what they did and some of those coins are significant, Ethereum, XRP whether you like it or not, you know Stellar, LiteCoin these have significant market caps, you know, some in the billions.

Peter: Yeah, I think it’s meaningless. I think a lot of them got really low liquidity. And the main issue is use-case. Like, who’s using any of this?  I think there’s a fair argument that people are using Ethereum, right? People are definitely using that. I think what are they using it for? You know, is it compound finance or uni swap? Or whatever these things I hear about and ultimately, can it scale and I think is the all the evidence leads to it’s got real scaling problems ahead. Augur, is anyone using Augur? Is anyone using Ox? Like, what is the viability?

BitBoy: People are using Ox anymore because all the main tokens have moved off of the theory.

Peter: Well, but my point being is like, is anyone using any of this shit?

BitBoy: But here’s the thing, I think it boils down to, do you believe that blockchain and tokenization is going to have as big an impact on the world as the internet? And if you believe yes, then you probably believe in the full tokenization of the world in the future. And if that’s the case, then it makes sense that we will have multiples. I’ve said many times, I believe when you talk about projects that are terrible ideas like bananas on the blockchain, or potatoes, you know, as you said, I agree with you. They sound terrible. However, a lot of these projects, in my opinion, are just way ahead of their time. Eventually, all that stuff will happen when you look back at the Internet, I talk about this all the time. Look at Webvan. Webvan was so far ahead of its time, that it completely failed.

Peter: But why did Webvan fail?

BitBoy: This week, I’ve used two different grocery delivery services, you know?

Peter: But why did Webvan fail?

BitBoy: Because there wasn’t a demand for it at the time.

Peter: Yeah, but he could have succeeded. That’s the main reason it failed. Is it scaled before it had customers, it had customers, it just by the time it out built their service. It didn’t have enough customers to cover his cost, was it like 800 million they raised or something crazy?

The thing is, one of the problems with these things is like what happened to Bootstrapping? What happened to Angel Rounds? And the Series A? Like what these people essentially– a lot of these blockchains did, they did an IPO before they had a product and now, they can’t get the traction of like the most basic startup, there’s a traction there.

So that’s going to be the main problem is that where’s the traction? Where’s the need? Because you’re going to say why do you want to blockchain? Why do you want to decentralize somebody? Or why do you want to decentralize? Well, I want to decentralize money. Why? Well, the government fucks with us and they steal it from us. Okay, that makes sense. What else do you want to decentralize? I want to decentralize Twitter. Why? Because they ban people.

Well, yeah, but you can start another crowd and no one really uses it and there’s got critical mass. Okay, yeah, so that’s not going to work. What else do you want to decentralize? Gambling? No worse but like so many things work perfectly well centralized. Why do you need to decentralize it? You don’t need a decentralized Dooba. You can put together a logical reason why it’d be better but can you build it out? So, it’s actually truly decentralized?

And so, for example, if you put Uber on the fucking blockchain, like, how do you run customer service? Like, you’ve got to have some things that are centralized and that, you know, maybe that’s annoying, but that’s what it is like, what do you need to decentralize? For me, I’ve heard very few arguments beyond money that make any sense. Yeah, maybe land registry by reckon, you can do that in a database anyway. So maybe your tokenized shares, maybe, but I just think it’s a solution trying to find a problem and no one’s made it fit. And I think there’s a reason why.

JChains: What do you think, actually, since we just been talking, John McAfee just posted something about tokenizing on the blockchain, the members of Congress, all of the money that they get, whether it’s their salary, donations, contributions, all that stuff. What do you think about something like that tokenizing the government? So that we as citizens can see exactly what’s going on.

Peter: Well, I think right now your crypto needs two things and it needs Bitcoin and it needs a stable coin. We have no stable coins but that’s all it needs right? So for me for example if you want to bank the unbanked, I have to have a bank account because have to have Pounds, but I could get away with not having a bank account if I had a wallet which was Bitcoin and a stable coin, and I know I would kind of use different leavers for them at different points. So, what do you actually tokenize you tokenize them or you just create a ledger which tracks where the donations they receive go? I’m pretty sure you could do that without a blockchain. I’m pretty sure you could just create a process where you have to track everything.

JChains: Yeah, that’s a good point.

Peter: Like what is it we’re trying to do here? We’re trying to create an audit. But what about, is there an official process they have to go through for it, to be logged? Well if there’s an official process for it to be logged that can go to a database doesn’t need a blockchain to do that.

JChains: That’s a good point.

BitBoy: I just think when it comes to decentralization, I feel like decentralization is very important. I feel like we’re still– like people neglect this fact, the internet is still in the days of the wild, wild west, people want to say ‘Crypto’s Wild Wild West’ the internet is still what? Only 25-30 years old as we know it? That’s like a baby. Imagine cars, when cars were 25 to 30 years old, compared to where we are now. Like, it’s so drastically different. Now I feel like the internet is that way. So, we’re still in a place where YouTube pops up. And everybody realizes like, ‘wow, I can have my own platform. I can have my own voice. I can make my own videos.’ Then everybody they go through a honeymoon phase or we’ve been through a honeymoon phase with YouTube where it’s like, ‘oh, this is great. This is novel. I want to get my voice out.’

And then what happens the corporate structure of Google, obviously they bought YouTube at some point in the corporate structure of Google Add censorship, Demonetizes people, starts making people angry and now people are starting to realize that in this kind of like’ gig economy’ that we have, where people can have platforms everywhere, and we don’t necessarily need someone else behind what we’re doing is work like I don’t need to work at a company to go on Fiverr and to sell graphic design, I just think that the internet in general is moving to a much more decentralized place where people are realizing that we have power.

So, you’re right, all of these things, they’ve worked fine in a centralized manner, since we’ve had the internet, but I don’t believe that’s the future of where we’re going. And if it is, then that’s a totalitarian future that I don’t want to head towards, I would much rather move towards a place where people have more power. So, do we need to tokenize people, you know, Congressman on the blockchain? Probably not. But do we need to have censorship resistant platforms? where people can get their voice out and not have to worry about all of a sudden Google decides that, like, here’s something crazy, I’ve thought about in videos like if you say the word ‘miner’ like ‘crypto mining’ like what if the YouTube algorithm reads that as ‘minor’ m-i-n-o-r and now all of a sudden, because of CAPA, they want to ban your video. Like there’s all kinds of things that those places can do to really exert their power and control and they can do a lot of things veiled in camouflage, like what their true motives might be.

So, to me personally, like yes, we’re not there. We don’t need everything on the blockchain right now. We don’t need everything decentralized. It works. But over time, I think people are going to get more behind that idea.

Peter: Maybe, but you don’t need a token. Like BitTorrent has been live for years, until TRON boarded and gave a token. You didn’t need a token, it worked fine. You can build these things decentralized; they don’t need tokens. I think the main problem is trying to try and turn everything into money. There’s this like weird incentive structure to make everything money, because it makes people fucking rich people. People got rich, people who become billionaires of this, like billionaires,

BitBoy: And then back 100-ers.

Peter: Yeah. Life sucks that point.

BitBoy: Yeah, I wasn’t even eluding to you. But yeah, of course you went through that as well.

Peter: Yeah, Alright. 90, 95% of people went through that. Did you have a big draw down?

BitBoy: Yeah, we all did.

Peter: Yeah, we all did. Everyone did. You know it’s funny, you get the fuckers they come up to me and they kind of start swinging at me ‘oh you’re the idiot who went up to 1.2 million and lost it.’ I was like, ‘yeah, so properly my proportions are exactly the same as you my drawdowns about the same, what’s your fucking point?’

JChains: Yeah like back off, man.

Peter: There’s like five people who made money.

BitBoy:  None of us thought in 2017 that it was going to crash like it did. I mean, that’s the euphoria of the bull market, right? I mean, there-

Peter: It’s going to go on forever.

BitBoy: Yes, Charlie Lee.

JChains: Diversify your assets, and then all of a sudden, you’re down 95%.

Peter: More tokens. Right, that’s the bottom. No, that’s the bottom. No, that’s the bottom. Where’s the fucking bottom?

BitBoy: Always looking for it. Well, Peter, thank you so much for joining us. It’s been a blast.

Peter: Alright man, loved it.

BitBoy: If you could tell everybody where they can find you at?

Peter: Yeah, I’ve got two podcasts. One’s for ‘What Bitcoin Did’ all about Bitcoin. I’ve got another show called ‘Defiance’ which is a bit more kind of political activist kind of stuff. You can find me on Twitter @PeterMcCormack or just Google ‘What Bitcoin Did’ or what ‘Bitcoin Did’ or ‘Defiance’ Thanks for having me on guys. When will we hang out in person next?

BitBoy: Concensus? Probably, yeah.

JChains: Is that the next time you’re coming to the States?

Peter: I might be over in February. I don’t think I’ll be in Atlanta. Where are you?

JChains: Austin, Texas.

Peter: I’m in Austin all the fucking time.

JChains: Dude!

Peter: I was in Austin like two weeks ago, dude, like three weeks ago, I’ve been in Austin, I was there in December and I was in November. If I’m coming over in February, it will probably be Austin.

JChains: Awesome. Hit me up.

Peter: Yeah, we’ll do that.

BitBoy: Awesome. Well, Peter, we will catch you on the next time we see you. Thanks for joining the show.

Peter: Thanks for having me guys.

JChains: Thanks, man.


Episode 74: Making Bitcoin Simple for Everyone w/ Peter McCormack

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